Actually, the worst signing this year has to be sabathia by the yankees. Sorry, but I don't get the logic of spending that much $$ on someone who has always fallen apart in the playoffs, and isn't even the #1 pitcher in the regular season. He's just not worth more than santana.
Beltran. Trade him now while his stock is sky high. His numbers will fall off, and even if they don't I think he is symptomatic of the "don't care, no heart" attitude.
Schneider. I'll take Castro + Santos. Addition by subtraction.
Putz. We don't need two closers, we need another starter.
And how much are we gonna have to eat in contracts to make these deals?
Beltran--probably the best suggestion since he has to come back to Earth at some point. Slidegate is a potential problem. But who's gonna take on his $21m a year?
Schneider--good luck finding takers there--big contract, zero bat, declining d...yeah, there's a gem...
Putz--this suggestion coming from the guy who screamed all winter about how we need bullpen depth and now wants to do what--oh, yeah--trade away bullpen depth.
Perez--another big contract. Who wants an enigma for $12m per (other than Omar, that is)?
And trading Maine will just exacerbate our lack of depth. It finally looks like he's getting healthy and showed stuff like in his 1 hitter from 2 years ago.
SHK, I've got a # for you to call with these trade ideas: 718-937-6666. They'll fit in perfectly with the usual dreck they get...
It's tough to say what we could package without knowing which starter you wanna target--each guy is gonna require a different amount based on quality and age.
I'd have no problem shipping Reyes, F-Mart, Niese, and even Parnell in some combination to get a top of the rotation guy. If we could find anyone dumb enough to take Ollie, Schneider, or Beltran without us paying their salaries, I'm all for it but I'm not holding my breath.
I think Jose is fairly replaceable (to a relative extent) and is low priced. F-Mart could be the next Alex Ochoa or Alex Escobar and there are a ton of attractive FA OF's next year. Niese and Parnell have show signs of competence and that alone makes them solid bait nowadays.
Peavy would be tops on my list. Oswalt and Halladay are great but both are already in their early/mid 30's. Webb is currently injured. Not sure what other difference makers are even remotely available...
OK, so let's start with two assumptions: 1) trading Beltran makes sense with his value high and; 2) Peavy would make a lot of sense (and if not Peavy, he's still a good proxy for what we need).
To make Beltran attractive you're going to have to eat a lot of that contract. No question there. So assume you're going to trade Beltran, F Mart, Niese, and lots of cash for Peavy.
Filling that void in CF is going to be tough, and you're only going to have a fraction of the cash avail on CF you spending now, cause you're still paying Beltran and adding Peavy.
If Delgado's rennaisance comes to an end, this team would be down to one RBI guy (as with past slow starts, I'm still confident D Wright will rebound soon). You're not going to be able to fill Beltran's RBI ability (even at his more normalized levels) and his glove work. With Murphy in left, we need a CF with exceptional range, and a gold glover like Beltran will be tough to replace.
SHK, you know I agree with you that Beltran's attitude leaves a lot to be desired, but without getting a competent fielding corner OF who could drive in runs in the offseason, I fear we're hemmed in. Replacing Beltran becomes very difficult.
Then there's the little matter of the fact that any team willing to trade a front line starter is probably not in contention for a pennant this year. And if that's true, they don't want a 30-something player that's coming near the end of his prime.
The reality is, from my perspective, it makes a lot more sense to move Reyes. He brings something extra as leadoff hitter with his pop that a lot of leadoff hitters don't have, and he's an exceptional fielder. But a high average SS who can field is a lot easier to come by than a CF who can hit for power and play gold glove defense. PLUS, a rebuilding team would want to have Reyes, b/c he's young enough to still be there if a new core of young players comes up through their system. And he's reasonably paid.
How about Jhonny Peralta and Cliff Lee for Reyes and Niese/Parnell? ESPN says they'd like to move Lee while his value is high. As a 2nd starter, I think Lee's a better fit than a #1 like Cleveland's trying to use him.
The other possibility is trading Wright, moving Murphy to his natural position (3B), and getting a LF to go along with a pitcher.
Trading Murphy, Parnell, Niese and F Mart is also a reasonable outcome, with Tatis and Sheff splitting time in left. You could land a lot of pitcher for those pieces.
First, to DC, while I definitely wanted the bullpen and starting rotation addressed I certainly did NOT want two closers. To me, on a team that has as many holes as we do (more than management is willing to admit), that's an asinine move. One closer, especially when that guy is K-rod, is fine.
Next, you needed a #2 starter. To me, not pursuing Lowe in the offseason was a tremendous disappointment, which is becoming more and more apparent.
As to eating salaries, too bad. If mets management wanted to overpay for Ollie, that's on them. Eat it and get us a real pitcher. We should've had D Lowe instead of him in the first place.
Also, as I requested two years ago I would've picked up free agent Torii Hunter. It would have cost NO trades (only $$), and the guy is solid so far this year (.338, 7 HR, 14 RBI). That would've allowed a trade for Beltran, who I think is a core part of our lack of team energy. In particular, you could've traded Beltran to the Sox last year who needed another outfielder and had an abundance of pitching.
Lee is a GREAT call--Cleveland totally wants to move him before they lose him or he costs them too much. I'd take him in a heartbeat and I think that's a reasonable package.
Unfortunately, Seattle came outta the gate like gangbusters so Bedard is likely to be off the table unless the M's completely fold (not too likely given the weak division). But Bedard and Lee are both FA's this season (Trbe do have an $8M option) along with Rich Harden (on another struggling team).
Another consideration for the future--if we go after a big bat in the corner (Holliday, Bay, Crawford, Ankiel, Nady), we could let Delgado go, move Wright to 1B, and put Murph back at third.
I love it. "F em, they screwed up, so they're obligated to spend money they don't have to satisfy the fans."
My only question is, why set the bar so low? Forget Torii Hunter and D Lowe, they should've locked up Texiera and Manny, and added Sabathia and Burnett to the rotation.
I'm with you on dumping Schneider, however.
Green's meltdown tonight notwithstanding, the pen looks great. It sounds good to say "don't get two closers", but that gets back to the old argument, how do you get a deep and reliable pen signing other teams' cast offs, and crossing your fingers with a bunch of farm hands?
If you want to know, and not just hope, you've improved a position, you've got to pay for it.
If not Putz, who did you want the Mets to go after as an 8th inning guy?
My guess is that, while Putz might have cost a little more than whoever that next tier target might have been, we weren't getting Lowe in either case.
Hey, look at the bright side--you might end up with the right call at end of the day anyways. You were the one who said the Metties would have to make a mid-season deal, and that's likely to come to fruition. With the pen in place, it may just be enough to put us over the top as well. All we need is that one arm and Pelf to return to his '08 form.
My point about the "f' em they screwed up" is that the problem with the mets starts at the ownership and goes through Minaya. I don't think they know what a winning team is and how to put one together.
If they were thinking straight, why in the world wouldn't you have picked up a free agent Hunter two years ago, to give you some great trade options? Any why hold onto both Putz and K-rod? Clearly having two closers is useless when you can't even make it to the 8th inning with a lead. Trade Putz and get a starter.
I agree, all things being equal if this team had no other problems it would be great to have two closers, like the Sox or Yanks previously. But when a team has as many weak areas as the Mets, you have to address those first before having the luxury of two closers.
If they hadn't signed Perez and Castillo to such ridiculous contracts we easily could have afforded D. Lowe.
I just don't see how management believed that despite years of evidence otherwise, this year somehow Pelfrey + Maine + Perez would all pull it together. That seems like a totally unreasonable expectation, and my only two goals in the offseason would have been one closer to replace Wags and a legit #2 starter. Tremendous move to pick up K-rod, but I just don't get not making a real run at Lowe. Solid innings eater with excellent ERA.
I can't say I disagree with anything in your last reply.
That said, the Mets DIDN'T make a run at Lowe and I'm not sure that that failure will inform their attempt to get another pitcher (e.g., we better break the bank, since we should've gotten Lowe). I just don't think there's much bank left to break.
15 comments:
Actually, the worst signing this year has to be sabathia by the yankees. Sorry, but I don't get the logic of spending that much $$ on someone who has always fallen apart in the playoffs, and isn't even the #1 pitcher in the regular season. He's just not worth more than santana.
DC was saying the other day that the Mets will likely target another starter, echoing something I think SHK said prior to the start of the year.
So my question is, if you're going to go after a starter in a trade, what pieces are willing you to move to make it happen?
Beltran. Trade him now while his stock is sky high. His numbers will fall off, and even if they don't I think he is symptomatic of the "don't care, no heart" attitude.
Schneider. I'll take Castro + Santos. Addition by subtraction.
Putz. We don't need two closers, we need another starter.
Perez or Maine, preferably Perez.
And how much are we gonna have to eat in contracts to make these deals?
Beltran--probably the best suggestion since he has to come back to Earth at some point. Slidegate is a potential problem. But who's gonna take on his $21m a year?
Schneider--good luck finding takers there--big contract, zero bat, declining d...yeah, there's a gem...
Putz--this suggestion coming from the guy who screamed all winter about how we need bullpen depth and now wants to do what--oh, yeah--trade away bullpen depth.
Perez--another big contract. Who wants an enigma for $12m per (other than Omar, that is)?
And trading Maine will just exacerbate our lack of depth. It finally looks like he's getting healthy and showed stuff like in his 1 hitter from 2 years ago.
SHK, I've got a # for you to call with these trade ideas: 718-937-6666. They'll fit in perfectly with the usual dreck they get...
Fredo,
It's tough to say what we could package without knowing which starter you wanna target--each guy is gonna require a different amount based on quality and age.
I'd have no problem shipping Reyes, F-Mart, Niese, and even Parnell in some combination to get a top of the rotation guy. If we could find anyone dumb enough to take Ollie, Schneider, or Beltran without us paying their salaries, I'm all for it but I'm not holding my breath.
I think Jose is fairly replaceable (to a relative extent) and is low priced. F-Mart could be the next Alex Ochoa or Alex Escobar and there are a ton of attractive FA OF's next year. Niese and Parnell have show signs of competence and that alone makes them solid bait nowadays.
Peavy would be tops on my list. Oswalt and Halladay are great but both are already in their early/mid 30's. Webb is currently injured. Not sure what other difference makers are even remotely available...
OK, so let's start with two assumptions: 1) trading Beltran makes sense with his value high and; 2) Peavy would make a lot of sense (and if not Peavy, he's still a good proxy for what we need).
To make Beltran attractive you're going to have to eat a lot of that contract. No question there. So assume you're going to trade Beltran, F Mart, Niese, and lots of cash for Peavy.
Filling that void in CF is going to be tough, and you're only going to have a fraction of the cash avail on CF you spending now, cause you're still paying Beltran and adding Peavy.
If Delgado's rennaisance comes to an end, this team would be down to one RBI guy (as with past slow starts, I'm still confident D Wright will rebound soon). You're not going to be able to fill Beltran's RBI ability (even at his more normalized levels) and his glove work. With Murphy in left, we need a CF with exceptional range, and a gold glover like Beltran will be tough to replace.
SHK, you know I agree with you that Beltran's attitude leaves a lot to be desired, but without getting a competent fielding corner OF who could drive in runs in the offseason, I fear we're hemmed in. Replacing Beltran becomes very difficult.
Then there's the little matter of the fact that any team willing to trade a front line starter is probably not in contention for a pennant this year. And if that's true, they don't want a 30-something player that's coming near the end of his prime.
The reality is, from my perspective, it makes a lot more sense to move Reyes. He brings something extra as leadoff hitter with his pop that a lot of leadoff hitters don't have, and he's an exceptional fielder. But a high average SS who can field is a lot easier to come by than a CF who can hit for power and play gold glove defense. PLUS, a rebuilding team would want to have Reyes, b/c he's young enough to still be there if a new core of young players comes up through their system. And he's reasonably paid.
How about Jhonny Peralta and Cliff Lee for Reyes and Niese/Parnell? ESPN says they'd like to move Lee while his value is high. As a 2nd starter, I think Lee's a better fit than a #1 like Cleveland's trying to use him.
The other possibility is trading Wright, moving Murphy to his natural position (3B), and getting a LF to go along with a pitcher.
Trading Murphy, Parnell, Niese and F Mart is also a reasonable outcome, with Tatis and Sheff splitting time in left. You could land a lot of pitcher for those pieces.
A few follow-ups.
First, to DC, while I definitely wanted the bullpen and starting rotation addressed I certainly did NOT want two closers. To me, on a team that has as many holes as we do (more than management is willing to admit), that's an asinine move. One closer, especially when that guy is K-rod, is fine.
Next, you needed a #2 starter. To me, not pursuing Lowe in the offseason was a tremendous disappointment, which is becoming more and more apparent.
As to eating salaries, too bad. If mets management wanted to overpay for Ollie, that's on them. Eat it and get us a real pitcher. We should've had D Lowe instead of him in the first place.
Also, as I requested two years ago I would've picked up free agent Torii Hunter. It would have cost NO trades (only $$), and the guy is solid so far this year (.338, 7 HR, 14 RBI). That would've allowed a trade for Beltran, who I think is a core part of our lack of team energy. In particular, you could've traded Beltran to the Sox last year who needed another outfielder and had an abundance of pitching.
Lee is a GREAT call--Cleveland totally wants to move him before they lose him or he costs them too much. I'd take him in a heartbeat and I think that's a reasonable package.
Unfortunately, Seattle came outta the gate like gangbusters so Bedard is likely to be off the table unless the M's completely fold (not too likely given the weak division). But Bedard and Lee are both FA's this season (Trbe do have an $8M option) along with Rich Harden (on another struggling team).
Another consideration for the future--if we go after a big bat in the corner (Holliday, Bay, Crawford, Ankiel, Nady), we could let Delgado go, move Wright to 1B, and put Murph back at third.
SHK,
I love it. "F em, they screwed up, so they're obligated to spend money they don't have to satisfy the fans."
My only question is, why set the bar so low? Forget Torii Hunter and D Lowe, they should've locked up Texiera and Manny, and added Sabathia and Burnett to the rotation.
I'm with you on dumping Schneider, however.
Green's meltdown tonight notwithstanding, the pen looks great. It sounds good to say "don't get two closers", but that gets back to the old argument, how do you get a deep and reliable pen signing other teams' cast offs, and crossing your fingers with a bunch of farm hands?
If you want to know, and not just hope, you've improved a position, you've got to pay for it.
If not Putz, who did you want the Mets to go after as an 8th inning guy?
My guess is that, while Putz might have cost a little more than whoever that next tier target might have been, we weren't getting Lowe in either case.
Hey, look at the bright side--you might end up with the right call at end of the day anyways. You were the one who said the Metties would have to make a mid-season deal, and that's likely to come to fruition. With the pen in place, it may just be enough to put us over the top as well. All we need is that one arm and Pelf to return to his '08 form.
By the way, I'd like to commend SHK on the original post in this thread.
Such brevity sparking such impassioned replies.
Best. Response. Chain. Ever.
Or at least this week!
My point about the "f' em they screwed up" is that the problem with the mets starts at the ownership and goes through Minaya. I don't think they know what a winning team is and how to put one together.
If they were thinking straight, why in the world wouldn't you have picked up a free agent Hunter two years ago, to give you some great trade options? Any why hold onto both Putz and K-rod? Clearly having two closers is useless when you can't even make it to the 8th inning with a lead. Trade Putz and get a starter.
I agree, all things being equal if this team had no other problems it would be great to have two closers, like the Sox or Yanks previously. But when a team has as many weak areas as the Mets, you have to address those first before having the luxury of two closers.
If they hadn't signed Perez and Castillo to such ridiculous contracts we easily could have afforded D. Lowe.
I just don't see how management believed that despite years of evidence otherwise, this year somehow Pelfrey + Maine + Perez would all pull it together. That seems like a totally unreasonable expectation, and my only two goals in the offseason would have been one closer to replace Wags and a legit #2 starter. Tremendous move to pick up K-rod, but I just don't get not making a real run at Lowe. Solid innings eater with excellent ERA.
I can't say I disagree with anything in your last reply.
That said, the Mets DIDN'T make a run at Lowe and I'm not sure that that failure will inform their attempt to get another pitcher (e.g., we better break the bank, since we should've gotten Lowe). I just don't think there's much bank left to break.
If the estimates I heard that the Wilpons lost $500 M in the Madoff scandal are correct, then that bank is pretty broken.
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